Sorry for trolling

[Ben Abbott]

On Friday, January 16, 2009, at 03:53PM, "Steven Verstoep" <isgoed at hotmail.com> wrote:
>Ok I am a bit of a troll here,
>
>but some heated discussion now and then might not be a bad thing
>
>Op 16 Jan 2009, om 20:19 heeft Thomas Treichl het volgende geschreven:
>> Steven Verstoep schrieb:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I have downloaded octave 3.0.3 some while ago. I used Octave  
>>> 2.1.53. I am running OS X 10.3.9 PPC G4.
>>> I had installed the latest version of X11 (1.0 for 10.3.9) Still  
>>> octave was not working.
>>> I then looked if there was an upgrade for AquaTerm. There was. I  
>>> upgraded to 1.0.1 from something like 0.3. After the upgrade octave  
>>> and gnuplot worked
>>> The problem I have with this is that NOWHERE in the documentation  
>>> it is mentioned that you need to install AquaTerm. Furthermore both  
>>> GnuPlot and Octave don't issue an error when plotting fails. It  
>>> just continues like nothing happens.
>>> Already for 2 weeks I am trying to make a scientific plot.  
>>> Opensource really should get their act together if they want to be  
>>> a serious alternative for commercial software. This is the 2nd time  
>>> I have to subscribe to this mailing list. I am reporting this just  
>>> for your information, since I already solved my problem.
>>
>> Which Octave 3.0.3 are you talking about? Fink, MacPorts, HMUG or  
>> Octave-Forge? What generally has Aquaterm.app to do with  
>> documentation of Octave? Aquaterm is only needed for Gnuplot and  
>> you're posting to an Octave mailing-list?
>>
>>  Thomas
>
>This kind of reasoning is so short sighted that I hope you don't write  
>the documentation.

The documentation is written by those with the enthusiam and initiative to do so. I'm sure your help would be welcomed in this effort.

>Op 16 Jan 2009, om 19:41 heeft John W. Eaton het volgende geschreven:
>
>> On 16-Jan-2009, Steven Verstoep wrote:
>>
>>> I think in general that opensource can't compete with commercial
>>> products.
>>
>> Octave is not about "opensource".  It is about software freedom.
>>
>
>I don't know the difference. I can speculate, but that will only make  
>me troll.
>
>>> You are right. i will be paying that $100 for a matlab license. My
>>> time is worth more.
>>
>> So you would be funding the further development of Matlab but not
>> Octave, yet still expecting Octave to be perfect?  How do you expect
>> that to happen?
>>
>> Oh, and if you are only paying $100, I guess you are a student user?
>>
>I am a student user yes, and I will pay for it with my own money. And  
>I indeed agree that free products have  a great risk of being faulty.  
>But then again I also know of commercial products that are very bad.  
>So I should at least try. And support (recognition) in the software  
>world is sadly often something that comes last. Right now Matlab is  
>the better product. So I will support them. But you are of course free  
>to try and improve on them.

Free products and expensive products have faults. In some cases the free versions have fewer. In general, having the freedom to correct the faults yourself is not a liberty the commercial vendors allow.

In the event you find a bug in the commericial variant, you'll not find they will be eager to fix it just for you. You'll need to wait for an update (which will cost you more money).

>>> A bug in software will affect every user.
>>
>> I guess it depends on the bug.  Apparently no one else noticed this
>> one yet.
>>
>Depends, maybe a lot of people noticed, but they didn't report it.

I think the point was that few users use the quiver function.

>>> For any product it holds that user satisfaction is the prime aspect
>>
>> Your mistake is thinking that Octave is a "product", apparently
>> developed by others for your benefit.  Octave is a community project,
>> primarily created for the benefit of the people who choose to work
>> on it.
>
>If Matlab did not existed, I would think your actions are very noble.  
>But the fact that octave clearly leaches on the user base and  
>familiarity with Matlab makes me question what exactly the benefit is  
>to the community? Octave does not try to be a better Matlab, just a  
>free one. When it is primarily created for the people who work on it,  
>does that in any way imply that people who not work on it should  
>morally not use it (Only take what you give)? Moreover since those  
>people are also likely to make use of the services Matlab provides on  
>their website like code exchange and user functions, do you then  
>consider giving anything back to Matlab?

Ok, now that is trolling :-(

>And about being a product. Treating octave as a product may improve  
>its quality. And maybe you are right that I mistake opensource with  
>being a product. In that case I am right in thinking that opensource  
>is not for me. And I will tell other people the same thing if they ask  
>me for my advice about using opensource or a commercial product.

More trolling :-(

>>> | How old is octave by now? And it still can't draw a vector field?
>>
>> Yeah, it really sucks!  But you know, this is just one feature of one
>> function that you found that didn't work correctly.  And I think the
>> fix is fairly simple.
>>
>For you it might be just a bug. For me it is the end of using octave.  
>And that's not just because of this bug. Two months ago I actually  
>went to mathworks website and put Matlab in my shopping basket, when I  
>thought: "Oh wait let's see if there is an update of octave that  
>actually runs again on my mac; maybe it saves me some time". Indeed  
>there was that update. Now I just regret that I didn't buy Matlab.

I'm on a Mac as well. I really hate it that the cursor in the commercial vendor's command window doesn't respond after being hidden :-(

I've been waiting a year for a fix to that.

>>> If you know that matrix dimensions are awkwardly defined in Matlab/
>>> Octave. You test it!
>>
>> I don't find matrix dimensions to be awkardly defined in Octave and
>> Matlab, nor do most of the users of Octave and Matlab.  So I'd guess
>> this misunderstanding is your problem.
>
>I today made this note, because I just couldn't  see the logic in it:
>
>x = columns
>y = rows
>[y x] = size(M)	# warning: [x y] makes sense
>M(y,x)			# warning: M(x,y) makes sense

This is historical. Fortran indexes one way and everyone else the other.

>>> You should be glad that there are users like me that take the time to
>>> in great detail report a bug and give advice.
>>
>> I am grateful for all the contributors to Octave.  But there is no
>> need for you to report bugs in a condescending manner.  Do you think
>> that messages such as yours are motivating to people?
>>
>>> As said; I already solved my problem. I just don't want other users  
>>> to
>>> go trough what I've been through. But maybe I should just shut up  
>>> next
>>> time, or tell them to buy Matlab?
>>
>> There is also another alternative.  You could report the problem in a
>> more pleasant way, and not act so shocked that occasionally there are
>> bugs.  By and large, the people working on Octave are not idiots, as
>> your messages seemed to imply.
>>
>> jwe
>
>> ...had you omitted the last paragraph, it would even have been a
>> fairly good bug report :)
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> -- 
>> RNDr. Jaroslav Hajek
>
>Agreed, snarling only upsets more people. At the time I was just  
>really pissed. It is just human nature.
>
>> it should be
>> easy for you to help us improve Octave by writing missing parts of the
>> documentation
>
>A bugreporting system (like this) seems to me a way more efficient  
>system for dealing with bugs and probably also leads to better  
>documentation.
>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> A Bug in octave just wasted a day of my work:
>>
>> Someone has to fix bugs. When I do so, I don't see it as a waste,  
>> but as a service to myself and others.
>>
>> Ben
>
>Agree halfly: my day was still wasted, but to not make it completely  
>useless, I reported this bug.
>
>> How many developers do you think are working full time in Mathworks?
>> How many do you think did work full time on octave for the last
>> 10 years...?
>>
>> Michael.
>
>Nice guessing game: Let's see
>Since already 5 people responded in a fairly brief time, there might  
>be quite an active community
>So I am guessing at least 20 main contributors in the last year and at  
>least 3 project maintainers with weekly input. It is hard to say what  
>this effectively adds up to in terms of full time working time, but  
>I'm guessing something between 2 and 5.
>I guess Matlab's main team is about 10 active + 10 backup developers/ 
>testers, but I am guessing that Mathworks has about 100 employees  
>(also being quite international).

Not that it makes any difference, but I think your estimate for the commercial vendor is off by more than an order of magnitude. The total number of employees exceeds 2000.

http://www.mathworks.com/company/aboutus/

Your estimate for the volunteers here is much more accurate.

Ben